Mayo Report

This is the place to discuss the episodes of the Comic Book Page podcast, the Comic Book Page website or pretty much anything else of interest to the Comic Book Page community...

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JohnMayo
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by JohnMayo »

drew102e wrote:lets keep is civil, I hate it when co-hosts fight
I completely agree with this. Having different viewpoints is great. And not agreeing is fine as along as it is done with a mutual respect.
drew102e wrote:not saying its biased, just saying its slanted in big twos favor because of a very flawed business practice (preordering)
I don't think pre-ordering isn't an inherently flawed business practice. In a non-returnable market with a lead time to product the material sold, it seems required. Pre-ordering does have some very unfortunate impacts on sales, particularly if/when it is difficult to accurately estimate the demand in advance.

Keep in mind that the direct market and pre-ordering came about as a result to existing market conditions in the returnable mass market that was collapsing at the time. Instead of blaming pre-ordering and the direct market for the current state of the industry, perhaps we should be thankful for the industry to still be around at all.

Suppose for a moment that pre-ordering wasn't required but that a more just-in-time sort of ordering process was available. Would sales on the smaller publisher titles suddenly go up?

I doubt it.

Certainly some retailers might be able to sell a few more comics from the other publishers but assuming the only change was pre-ordering (and not the different discount levels between publishers) then those other comics would still be less profitable for the retailers. The reduced risk would certainly help but it is unlikely to help enough to level the playing field.

DC and Marvel would still have a larger marketing budget and a pre-existing larger mind share. People are simply more aware of the Marvel and DC properties. The younger companies don't have that advantage. The smaller publishers are what is known as "challenger brands" and need to act and compete accordingly.

Perhaps the solution to leveling the playing field is in opening up the economies of scale to the smaller publisher. Imagine if a company were to help the different publishers coordinate the printing, shipping and other aspects of trafficing a comic book and using that larger footprint could get better deals than the individual publishers could get now. That would help make those items more profitable for both the publisher and hopefully for the retailers. An umbrella brand, if properly done, could also help raise awareness of the various properties which would also help. I don't think it would completely level the playing field but I think it could help and is much more workable than eliminating the pre-ordering system which (for good or bad) the industry currently is reliant upon.
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Re: Mayo Report

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fudd71 wrote:I could not agree more that preordering is a crazy business practice that hurts the industry. I hate it enough that I simply refuse to participate. I have tried preordering several times for shot periods and found I just don't care for, so I don't do it.
Crazy? Yes. but also seems required. If someone can come up with a viable way to sell print in the direct market comics without, I'd love to hear how that could work.

fudd71 wrote:I will say this, if we see more things like the loot create deals, the Diamond numbers could become similar to the BookScan numbers. Right now those deals are few and far between, and John does a great job of pointing out that they are not indicative of a books normal sales pattern. If in the future there are enough of those types of deals made that 50% or more of the year end Top 100 is because of those deals, the Diamond list will be just as flawed as the BookScan list.
I don't know if I'd use the term "flawed" but I essentially agree with you. LootCrate deals are a completely different sort of sales and from a trending point of view, they are anomalies. Then again, first issue sales are also outliers and increasingly worthless for trending purposes.

With the data available, incomplete and imperfect that it is, what other key performance indicators would you guys suggest?

And given the discussion around pre-ordering, which none of us are in favor of, can you guys think of a way we might be able to accurately predict the sales of a comic based on the available solicitation information and past sales data? The main problem with pre-ordering is needing to know in advance how something might sell. If we can help estimate those potential sales, that might minimize the damage caused by pre-ordering.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by drew »

for trades episode

is lumberjanes top ten debut the best for a Boom book?

the 3rd walking dead compendium is coming out in a few months, how did the first two do in sales when they debuted
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by Perseus »

Drew, It was nice to see you mention Lumberjanes. When I was at Emerald City Comic Con up here in Seattle, the tpb for that title was really a hot topic around the con. I think the Boom! Booth sold out of the book. That is the great thing about Emerald City. Marvel and DC usually do not have booths here. The indies like Boom!, Image, Archaia, Aspen, Valiant, and IDW really are the focus of the con. I need to read Lumberjanes, as it has a lot of critical acclaim.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by Perseus »

I'm reposting my response on drew's April thread over here on the Mayo Report.




Where to start on the comic sales..

Wow, Um Star Wars rules. With regular sales and reordering activity. Great job to Disney and Marvel on the Star Wars books.

Here's a question. Did Dark Horse ever have a Star Wars title that did these kinds of sales numbers consistently? Why couldn't they produce the same kind of numbers? Is it pure marketing by Disney/Marvel? Star Wars is a household name.

Nice numbers for Kanan: The Last Padawan! We picked that comic up on FCBD. Kanan is an awesome character from Star Wars: Rebels on Disney XD. Watch the show if you haven't. It's great stuff!

Also, I'm interested in wondering just how many Convergence issues are sitting at the LCS shops around the country. Given the mixed reviews on the main title, I'm wondering how many Convergence issues will be gathering dust at the shops. I'll have to check mine and ask my friend how his sales were.

John, here's one for you. #132 and #133, Spider-Man and the X-men. Are we seeing low numbers there because of Secret Wars coming up? Or is it a bad book? Those two properties are the most popular at Marvel, so putting them together should be great numbers on paper. What do you think?

John and Sam, why did Multiversity #2 take such a huge hit? Did Convergence prove to readers that Multiversity doesn't matter? Morrison books do not take that big of drops in my opinion.

Spider-Gwen doing really well. I haven't read this book. Is it worth a try?

Kudos to Valiant for Bloodshot: Reborn. Nice numbers for that #1.

TMNT #45 did nice numbers after 44. #43 had 14,551 units in February. 45 now at 20,158. I know it was a drop from 44, but that issue had multiple printings. I think that's a gain for that book. The last Technodrome story arc was phenomenal. Wondering if they are going to relaunch after #50.

#217 Sonic Universe #75. Doubled their unit sales. They also had multiple covers , 9 to be exact. It was also the 75th issue. Next issue will be the Sonic/Mega Man Worlds Unite crossover. The previous crossover, Worlds Collide, was supposed to be a great set of issues.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by JohnMayo »

Perseus, Sam and I covered most, possibly all, of your questions when we recorded last night. The episode should go up on Wednesday.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by Perseus »

JohnMayo wrote:Perseus, Sam and I covered most, possibly all, of your questions when we recorded last night. The episode should go up on Wednesday.

Thank you John! Your episodes are always fantastic!
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by NiklasJ »

Awesome podcast!
(Too much to comment in one post...)

Interesting about the best-selling star wars comics from dark horse, if I understood correct it was the comic version of Lucas rough/first draft of Star Wars from 2013(?) and then Brian Woods Star Wars you mentioned. (regarding increased public interest due to movie) Those are very late in Dark Horse´s comic production of the SW and its expanded universe which they based multiple comics, books and games about. With all the tales of the jedi, knights of the old republic and other, I would have thought they had some better selling comics but apparently not.

They used the movie characters for the early EU stories, dark empire I and II, shadow of the empire(comic/book?), predominantly for the books I guess (Thrawn, Jedi...something) and didnt have quite the clean slate Marvel has to work with now. Then again I think I read something about them(DisneySW) shipping 20-something new books until the new movie Force Awakens hits the theaters?

Personally I was only interested in DarthVader at the start but, Cassaday on art made Star Wars a must buy and the coming change to Stuart Immonen will not make me drop it (he is really good too). And now they have Maleev doing a Lando-mini... Having some of the best comic creators there are doing stuff for SW is really clever. New readers can be hooked with the marvel PR machine but its fantastic art and good stories that keep interest going and what I believe is why reorders on DarthVader#3 is #79 in april sales and the other SW-titles are also doing well.

(Speculation and wild speculation) 200k+ regular sales on a SW title cant be only existing customers, there "has to" have been some influx of new or newold comic readers, maybe some of them have picked up copies of other cool recognizable comics, for example batman (+11%), spiderman (+36%), justiceleague & harleyquinn (+7%), thor, superman, wonderwoman, avengers(SecretWars?), daredevil, captain marvel(blackvortex?), hulk and others with an unusual (if only slight) increase in sales across the board when we have come to expect most titles to marginally drop off slowly.

Apologies for wall of text, spelling and grammar difficulties, I try to clarify with (parenthesis) hope you understand what I´m trying to say.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by drew »

NiklasJ wrote: (Speculation and wild speculation) 200k+ regular sales on a SW title cant be only existing customers, there "has to" have been some influx of new or newold comic readers, maybe some of them have picked up copies of other cool recognizable comics, for example batman (+11%), spiderman (+36%), justiceleague & harleyquinn (+7%), thor, superman, wonderwoman, avengers(SecretWars?), daredevil, captain marvel(blackvortex?), hulk and others with an unusual (if only slight) increase in sales across the board when we have come to expect most titles to marginally drop off slowly.
I think you may be on to something, perhaps star wars comics are the gateway for lapsed and new readers to get back into the hobby...man I hope you are right...I would love a top ten over 100k to be the rule and not the exception
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by clobberin_time_bs »

I just listened to the episode and great job as always guys, sorry for my un-answerable question :D . The only DC title I'm reading right now is Harley Quinn and I guess I just didn't realize that the Convergence titles were so different from what was coming before. I did pick up Convergence #0 and was pretty unimpressed so I didn't get anything after that except for the Harley Quinn tie-ins. On a related note Convergence #0 and Secret Wars #2 were basically the same story, at least concept wise, but I enjoyed Secret Wars #2 A LOT more. I hope that means good things for the event going forward. I've enjoyed all of the tie-ins that I have read so far as well.

I know this is before the final order era, but I remember back when the first movie of the prequel Star Wars trilogy came out and Dark Horse put out a bunch of Star Wars related titles. At the time Wizard Magazine published the top 100 comics each month in their magazine and many of those title were top 20 sellers. I don't know what that means number wise, but maybe that kind of excitement is similar to what we are seeing now on the Star Wars titles.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by JohnMayo »

Just to be clear, the data checked on the Star Wars titles on went back to March 2003. I have data for preorders going back another couple of years. I typically limit the scope of my research to the final order era to avoid apples-to-oranges comparisons.
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Re: Mayo Report

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clobberin_time_bs wrote:I know this is before the final order era, but I remember back when the first movie of the prequel Star Wars trilogy came out and Dark Horse put out a bunch of Star Wars related titles. At the time Wizard Magazine published the top 100 comics each month in their magazine and many of those title were top 20 sellers. I don't know what that means number wise, but maybe that kind of excitement is similar to what we are seeing now on the Star Wars titles.
yeah it was way back in May of 1999:

May 1999 Comic Book Sales Figures
Estimated Comics Preordered by North American Comics Shops
as Reported by Diamond Comic Distributors

Comic-book Title Issue Price Publisher Est. preorders
1 Uncanny X-Men 370 $1.99 Marvel 127,164
2 X-Men 90 $1.99 Marvel 124,648
3 Spawn 86 $1.95 Image 93,402
4 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 1 $2.95 Dark Horse 88,437
5 JLA 31 $1.99 DC 86,457
6 Avengers 18 $1.99 Marvel 85,864
7 Wolverine 140 $1.99 Marvel 85,781
8 Earth X 4 $2.99 Marvel 83,967
9 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 2 $2.95 Dark Horse 83,639
10 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 3 $2.95 Dark Horse 82,345
11 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 4 $2.95 Dark Horse 81,966
12 Daredevil 9 $2.50 Marvel 81,155
13 Spawn The Dark Ages 3 $2.50 Image 72,442
14 Spawn Annual 1 $4.95 Image 72,333
15 Amazing Spider-Man 7 $1.99 Marvel 71,580
16 Magneto Rex 3 $2.50 Marvel 70,160
17 Star Wars Phantom Menace Anakin Skywalker $2.95 Dark Horse 69,360
18 Star Wars Phantom Menace Obi Wan Kenobi $2.95 Dark Horse 69,266
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by clobberin_time_bs »

drew102e wrote:
yeah it was way back in May of 1999:

May 1999 Comic Book Sales Figures
Estimated Comics Preordered by North American Comics Shops
as Reported by Diamond Comic Distributors

Comic-book Title Issue Price Publisher Est. preorders
1 Uncanny X-Men 370 $1.99 Marvel 127,164
2 X-Men 90 $1.99 Marvel 124,648
3 Spawn 86 $1.95 Image 93,402
4 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 1 $2.95 Dark Horse 88,437
5 JLA 31 $1.99 DC 86,457
6 Avengers 18 $1.99 Marvel 85,864
7 Wolverine 140 $1.99 Marvel 85,781
8 Earth X 4 $2.99 Marvel 83,967
9 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 2 $2.95 Dark Horse 83,639
10 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 3 $2.95 Dark Horse 82,345
11 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 4 $2.95 Dark Horse 81,966
12 Daredevil 9 $2.50 Marvel 81,155
13 Spawn The Dark Ages 3 $2.50 Image 72,442
14 Spawn Annual 1 $4.95 Image 72,333
15 Amazing Spider-Man 7 $1.99 Marvel 71,580
16 Magneto Rex 3 $2.50 Marvel 70,160
17 Star Wars Phantom Menace Anakin Skywalker $2.95 Dark Horse 69,360
18 Star Wars Phantom Menace Obi Wan Kenobi $2.95 Dark Horse 69,266
Interesting, i know they're not apples to apples comparisons like John said, but if we trust these numbers (and they should be close since i assume they shipped unlike some Image comics at the time) Marvel is still outselling Dark Horse by about double.
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by drew »

clobberin_time_bs wrote:
drew102e wrote:
yeah it was way back in May of 1999:

May 1999 Comic Book Sales Figures
Estimated Comics Preordered by North American Comics Shops
as Reported by Diamond Comic Distributors

Comic-book Title Issue Price Publisher Est. preorders
1 Uncanny X-Men 370 $1.99 Marvel 127,164
2 X-Men 90 $1.99 Marvel 124,648
3 Spawn 86 $1.95 Image 93,402
4 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 1 $2.95 Dark Horse 88,437
5 JLA 31 $1.99 DC 86,457
6 Avengers 18 $1.99 Marvel 85,864
7 Wolverine 140 $1.99 Marvel 85,781
8 Earth X 4 $2.99 Marvel 83,967
9 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 2 $2.95 Dark Horse 83,639
10 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 3 $2.95 Dark Horse 82,345
11 Star Wars Episode I The Phantom Menace 4 $2.95 Dark Horse 81,966
12 Daredevil 9 $2.50 Marvel 81,155
13 Spawn The Dark Ages 3 $2.50 Image 72,442
14 Spawn Annual 1 $4.95 Image 72,333
15 Amazing Spider-Man 7 $1.99 Marvel 71,580
16 Magneto Rex 3 $2.50 Marvel 70,160
17 Star Wars Phantom Menace Anakin Skywalker $2.95 Dark Horse 69,360
18 Star Wars Phantom Menace Obi Wan Kenobi $2.95 Dark Horse 69,266
Interesting, i know they're not apples to apples comparisons like John said, but if we trust these numbers (and they should be close since i assume they shipped unlike some Image comics at the time) Marvel is still outselling Dark Horse by about double.
I think this may be the age of returnable orders...
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Re: Mayo Report

Post by Perseus »

Fantastic sales episode.

It will be interesting to see how DC will do next month with Secret Wars by Marvel launching. I never wanna bash DC since I do love the characters. However, they are limping into their new DC You initiative in my opinion. Hopefully the new books will start off well and gather momentum.

With Marvel and DC battling it out for sales we will have to see how the rest of the direct market fares as well.

I will be watching to see how Sonic Universe #76 does. It will be the beginning of the Act II Sonic/Mega Man Worlds Unite Crossover. John mentioned the book doing sales numbers like #75 back around issue #51. Those issues were the first Sonic/Mega Man crossover. I'll have to get those trades.

Also will be seeing how Usagi Yojimbo does again now that Stan Sakai is returning the ongoing series back off of the hiatus.

And also, Star Wars, again will be of some interest.
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