Mayo Report

[SpideySavestheDay]

Great episode! DC's Convergence, Marvel's Star Wars, and Valiant's Book of Death has created a tremendous amount of interesting discussion about the industry.

Something that caused my ears to perk up were terms to describe #1's - Actual #1's & Artificial #1's. Fascinating terminology to describe the difference between the start of a new book, character, concept, etc and restarting a title for the purpose of greater sales. I have not heard the beginning of a comic identified in such a manner.

I have to give credit to John and Sam for creating new comic lexicon!

[NiklasJ]

Something that caused my ears to perk up were terms to describe #1's - Actual #1's & Artificial #1's. Fascinating terminology to describe the difference between the start of a new book, character, concept, etc and restarting a title for the purpose of greater sales.

Especially the Wolverine and the Xmen renumbering mentioned in the podcast is just stupid^3, even when spiderman joined they could have kept the numbering a la Batman and ... the DC New52 at least brings a solid numbering for the few titles that remain.

A weekly comic spotlight (way back) mentioned renumbering on Grayson but not on Batgirl and I think DC did right by those. Compared to recent marvels, Thor, allnewFalcap... while I understand having Thor as a #1 with all the media attention might make a certain sense for marketing, as a reader jumping into Thor #1 it was clearly "Artificial" and just for sales.

Doing every "jumping on point" a #1 will make for very shortlived comics, comics shouldnt be that hard to start reading...

Just to be clear, the data checked on the Star Wars titles on went back to March 2003. I have data for preorders going back another couple of years. I typically limit the scope of my research to the final order era to avoid apples-to-oranges comparisons.

Of course didnt think about that, the dark empire stuff is from early nineties (wow, i must be old now...) and not comparable to the new marvel SW.

[doctormo]

I foresee the discussion of 'stealth mini-series' continuing. Especially as Secret Wars gets into full swing. Even though it will be a few months down the road, I am looking forward to seeing a sales comparison between Secret Wars titles that are solicited as mini-series versus those that are not, even though they clearly mini-series. For example Secret Wars 2099 (5 issue mini) vs Old Man Logan (which is clearly the Wolverine placeholder). If Marvel holds true to form A-Force could be relaunched since CBR and Newsarama have reported the title will stick around after Secret Wars.

Marvel's constant relaunches/renumbering have made me cynical about their marketing and publication strategies (and Valiant's practices too). However, it makes for fascinating reading and analytical discussions.

Question - I wonder why Marvel is double shipping some of their Star Wars titles? Do they believe Star Wars will cool off before the movie opens in December? Or do they want to have a lot of material available for trade prior to December?

[Perseus]

I really wish some books could gain some traction outside of the direct market.

I know Jim Zub just finished Samurai Jack #20. It's the last issue due to low sales. John Siuntres (Word Balloon) loves the book.

However, Jim was on his page and twitter saying that Samurai Jack has a loyal fanbase, but it seems no one knew there was a Samurai Jack comic out continuing the story of Jack from the animated series. The creator approved the stories as well.

My thing is with IDW and other publishers that have known licensed properties, the hurdle of providing these titles outside of the direct market. I mean, IDW has been putting out Turtles, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Samurai Jack, Star Trek, Cartoon Network books, Popeye, and others for a while now.

These books need to be in bookstores, discount store chains (WalMart), Toys R Us, and other places for fans that do not visit a comic store. Not only adults but kids as well could be exposed to the comic of properties they see on TV.

Invader Zim is about to come out this summer. That show has a huge cult following. If the book only has about 10,000 units sold to comic shops, I'll be like, no way.

Books like these and comics in general need to be gracing the racks of alot more places than comic book stores.

[clobberin_time_bs]

Books like these and comics in general need to be gracing the racks of alot more places than comic book stores.

Marvel has officially stopped all comic distribution outside of the direct market which means one of the biggest properties (Star Wars) will never see its comics outside of comic stores. Other companies say they still have a newsstand distribution but if you can find a comic stand in a grocery store or book store its very small. I agree with you, there has to be a way to get comics in front of non comic fans but the industry seems to think digital and trades are the only way to do this.
http://the-digital-reader.com/2013/12/3 ... naffected/

[NiklasJ]

I also wanted to comment on Johns closing remarks about the criticism on DC in the latest Mayo Report. I started reading some DC comics when they started the new 52 and its mostly been really really frustrating. So keep up the bashing of stupid DC things!

Frustrated fanboy rant follows in spoiler obscurity:
(probably just a rehash of what the weekly podcasts have been about)

PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:

I like to read comics, I dont expect every comic I read to be superfantastic, I dont think I have high standards or demands from my comic experience. If the comic is somewhat entertaining or interesting or pretty to look at or it has a good/decent story or it has characters or artists I like on it I will probably like it as well. I try to limit myself, there isnt room to try everything... generally "elseworld"(?) tales ultimate/earth2/anysuchstuff wont get a chance at all.

That being said I kinda feel like DC dont even want me to read (or even try to read) their comics.

I started reading DC52 with the following comics:

Batman, good
ActionComics, decent start but quickly went to "shred, burn, wipe from existence and never read morrison again"-status
AnimalMan, good, cancelled
SwampThing, good, cancelled (actually got me to collect tpbs of Moores run GR8)
DemonKnights, decent, i liked it enough, cancelled
WonderWoman, good, stopped when Azarello left
GreenLantern, liked the Sinestro start and most of Johns run, went into x-over hell and when godhead was solicited that was it for me, No more Lanterns! (sadly sinestro was also part of godhead, might have tried it otherwise)
Firestorm, not very good, stopped a few issues before cancellation
CaptainAtom, not very good, stopped a few issues before cancellation
PhantomStranger, not very good, stopped after 3-4 issues
JusticeLeague, wasnt that great when it had JL in it for first 10 or so issues and after that the comic wasnt about the JL anymore, didnt like trinitywar or forever evil and not interested in luthor league, stopped reading with the solicit of the metal men (whoarethey/whocares/notme/imout) FE issue of JL i think.

late additions
Grayson, good, but to me the shipping seems awfully slow?
JLU, decent, not the best story but im not that picky, has good enough cast and the Legion.

Darkseid war sounds good so ill start JL again, really want to read one superman book but the whole Truth thing in all the titles who are going to reference each other back and forth has me on the fence...

Maybe I could have done better choices on what to read, the list is certainly diversitychallenged but those are the ones i went with anyway.

I dont care much for the september special issues (zero/futuresend/villains month), uninteresting and only gives me opportunity to check out other books that i can read instead of the DC stuff. (which is why i have a lot more imagestuff now)

I dont know, maybe a DC fan reading Marvel feels equally confused and left out in the cold reading their books? They can certainly make equally stupid things... renumbering comics every 5 months and such.

With the end of convergence (didnt read) and the changes it brings according to cbr im... confused... wth again whyyyy

[SpideySavestheDay]

...I kinda feel like DC dont even want me to read (or even try to read) their comics.

As a reader that came back with the N52, I share a lot of the same feelings about DC. Other than Batman and The Flash, the other DC books I read or sampled never stuck with me. The crossovers and events wore thin and did more to help me discover indie titles (ie Image) and take a chance on the Valiant universe.

[drew]

Questions for the next Mayo Reports:

Comics:
another top ten over 100 grand...when did that happen previously in back to back months?

2 titles over half a million - has that happened before?

1 Secret Wars 1 $4.99 Marvel 527,678
2 Bravest Warriors Tales from the Holo John† 1 $4.99 Boom 502,737
3 Secret Wars 2 $4.99 Marvel 210,807
4 Star Wars 5 $3.99 Marvel 146,850
5 Deadpools Secret Secret Wars 1 $4.99 Marvel 131,839
6 A-Force 1 $3.99 Marvel 114,528
7 Old Man Logan 1 $4.99 Marvel 114,184
8 Darth Vader 5 $3.99 Marvel 113,025
9 Convergence 5* $3.99 DC 103,219
10 Convergence 6* $3.99 DC 101,386

At Rank 162 Mad Max Fury Road Nux & Immortan Joe from Vertigo sold out immediately and is a tough comic to find...this is the case of a (great) movie driving demand for the comic but retailers/industry not being able to react with supply...how do publishers determine print runs of second or subsequent printings since they aren't solicited in previews...do they directly communicate with retailers?


Trades:

Is night nurse #1 really just an expensive comic or a cheap trade?
-why do some comics get counted on the trade side and vice versa?

Wasnt Walking Dead Vol. 1 Days Gone Bye (rank 14) a $9.99 price point - i thought this was the image title that started the low price first volume trend?

Scott Pilgrim (rank 309) is now being released in color hardcover from Oni - heard of any plans for a omnibus collection?

Great job guys...

[TJ602]

Drew,

In regards to the walking dead trade: This trade was originally priced at $9.99, and you are right that Kirkman was the one pushing this at image for first volumes of trades. However a few years ago Tony Moore sued kirkman claiming that he had misled him and had him sign some of his rights over to Kirkman's LLC. Remember that Moore only worked on the first 6 issues (material from the first trade) and as the series started selling huge numbers, Moore felt he was missing out on the fortune kirkman was making with the series. So Moore felt he was getting a artificially small portion of the huge walking dead machine as he only got royalties on that first trade. On Image $9.99 trades there is very little margin. There is much more margin on the $14.99 trades which is the standard price for most image trades (The Top Cow division has a different business model and you see this as their trades are often $19.99). The creators eventually settled the lawsuit, and kirkman soon after raised the price of the first trade to $14.99. So it seems most likely that part of the settlement was Moore getting more of the margin created by raising the price from $9.99 to $14.99. There are a few articles that covered the lawsuit that can be found via google if you want to dig into the nitty gritty.

[drew]

Drew,

In regards to the walking dead trade: This trade was originally priced at $9.99, and you are right that Kirkman was the one pushing this at image for first volumes of trades. However a few years ago Tony Moore sued kirkman claiming that he had misled him and had him sign some of his rights over to Kirkman's LLC. Remember that Moore only worked on the first 6 issues (material from the first trade) and as the series started selling huge numbers, Moore felt he was missing out on the fortune kirkman was making with the series. So Moore felt he was getting a artificially small portion of the huge walking dead machine as he only got royalties on that first trade. On Image $9.99 trades there is very little margin. There is much more margin on the $14.99 trades which is the standard price for most image trades (The Top Cow division has a different business model and you see this as their trades are often $19.99). The creators eventually settled the lawsuit, and kirkman soon after raised the price of the first trade to $14.99. So it seems most likely that part of the settlement was Moore getting more of the margin created by raising the price from $9.99 to $14.99. There are a few articles that covered the lawsuit that can be found via google if you want to dig into the nitty gritty.

oh wow, I had no idea, very interesting

[NiklasJ]

It must be hard to have any decent discussion when its mostly nr 2 of the convergence issues or nr 1s of secret wars stuff, not a lot to go on...

star wars keeping on strong, i really like what they are doing, double shipping has its ups and downs but as a comic reader i like the momentum it gives (compared to Grayson which have had 9(or so?) issues in 12 months...)

That could be a point of discussion, double shipping titles vs keeping a strictly monthly schedule, spiderman, avengers, uncannyxmen and starwars titles have issues out more often and some still sell well each time, compared to Snyders Batman that only gets a comic per month and always goes to #1 in sales. The Spidey editors have kept a tight ship and maintained a consistent look on their flagship a bunch of years now. DC instead does sideshow books with a weekly schedule, didnt read so cant flame on batman eternal was good you said.

Sorry cant come up with a good question in this matter... more issues of SlottSpider with rotating artist or less of SnyderCapulloBat good or bad? Returning to Grayson, why cant they get that book out more often, its good I want more.

when spiderwoman was announced and later silk and spidergwen they were mostly considered dead on arrival but with quality issues they seem to be holding their own, I wonder how much the supposed renumbering of 55-60 marvel comics hurt their sales when the spidergal comics are expected to do a #1 relaunch again post SW...

If I may say so myself I think marvel is putting out a lot of quality creative teams on their secret wars books now, they got a lot of variety and quirkyness(spelling...?) mixed with top notch superheroing! Ennis Monsters dwell, Del Mundos weirdworld, anything by Jason Aaron, Slott/Kubert, WillowWilsons AForce, Bendis/Bagley, Bendis/Sorrentino, Andrade, Weaver, Alan Davis are doing stuff, Soule/Yu, Noelle Stevenson and more, really nice to be a marvel fan now

How much do image comics need to sell to stay afloat? Copperhead drops below 10k sales this month, I really like that one, after Lazarus it shares second place with Birthright and Low as my favourite almost-monthly-comic.

Small increase on Orphan Black #3, did they have a LootCrate bump?

DC better hope their DCyou stuff works, 70 NI from marvel and 66 NI from DC and still unit share is 45 to 27. (though I tend to agree with the windmill column at CBR that fewer but better comics would be a nice "radical" move...)

[RowdyFromScrubs]

How much do image comics need to sell to stay afloat? Copperhead drops below 10k sales this month, I really like that one, after Lazarus it shares second place with Birthright and Low as my favourite almost-monthly-comic.

I was wondering the same thing. It appears that my beloved C.O.W.L. is being canceled at #11. #9 sold 6,276. I really like Savior, also. I'm worried that #1 only started out with 26k. If it follows the trend it would be under 10k by late fall.

[drew]

How much do image comics need to sell to stay afloat? Copperhead drops below 10k sales this month, I really like that one, after Lazarus it shares second place with Birthright and Low as my favourite almost-monthly-comic.

I was wondering the same thing. It appears that my beloved C.O.W.L. is being canceled at #11. #9 sold 6,276. I really like Savior, also. I'm worried that #1 only started out with 26k. If it follows the trend it would be under 10k by late fall.

Image stuff mostly depends on the creator, if they are okay with the sales for the time invested, it can continue indefinitely. i.e. Elephantmen which is 60+ issues in but seldom sells more than 3-4k, if the creator(s) enjoys doing it sometimes they keep going with or without the sales/$$

I fear most creators are going to continue to solicit as an ongoing knowing full well they only want to tell a story arc or two and end it, Marc Millar does this constantly but he is not alone

[SpideySavestheDay]

How much do image comics need to sell to stay afloat?

I think that is a great point to ponder especially for a month where Marvel and DC are "eventing" (how's that for a comic term?).

From what I've heard and read, most indie creators can withstand a low print run due to the limited overhead, trades and digital sales, no predetermined cancel point, no stockholders to satisfy and other advantages over corporate owned comics. Kirkman has stated he can support his family on Invincible alone (wow, think about the Walking Dead gravy train!). Hickman has also stated he makes 80% of his money from creator-owned titles like East of West.
*If sources are needed, then let me know and I will find the interviews from a variety of different podcasts.

One final bit of info I just read came from Kieron Gillen discussing how many copies does The Wicked + The Divine need to sell to be successful. Check out his blog - http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/121 ... -divine-in.

I don't really have a question for this month's The Mayo Report, but I do agree with Niklas's and Image's numbers can be a great talking point. Read Gillen's blog, find other creators who are talking about the sales of their books, then return to Diamond's May 2015 numbers. Image's numbers don't look that bad.

[SpideySavestheDay]

Looking at Gillen's blog after typing the previous post, I found this: http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/122 ... pointed-to.

Image doesn't guarantee success. That should give us an idea of what an Image book needs to sell.