Mayo Report

[fudd71]

I agree with Drew the bookscan numbers are more information and another piece of the picture. For the comics that appear on the list they are certainly real tangible sales numbers. I'm just not convinced the list as a whole is that useful in the context of comics. It is a rigged list that favors large book distributors specifically publishers of children's and YA books that happened to have illustrations not necessarily what we mean when we say comics.

Another thing the bookscan numbers don't show that John's analysis of the Diamond numbers for instance do is retail rank. While it is an assumption, it is a fairly safe assumption that most books on the Diamond sales chart are sold to retailers at a 35-55% discount. When a book is more heavily discounted that shows up in the retail rank. John and the various cohosts of the Mayo reports usually point that out, and the fact that extra copies were "given away" or Diamond was having a fire sale is pointed out, as well as which titles that applied to. The bookscan numbers don't only not have a similar matrix, but mainly represent a market with much thinner margins to begin with. In that market you are most likely dealing with a 50-70% retailer discount, plus 10-30% marketing dollars on the PO value, plus a potential 10-25% promo and placement discount (buying shelf space or endcaps) plus a 2-5% damages and defect allowance and in many of those markets the distributor pays for shipping (at least to a large stores distribution center). It is also a returnable market, most soft cover books are destroyed instead of returned (it is cheaper than shipping them back) and with hardcovers the distributor is usually asked to to provide additional discounts of 25-75% so the hardcovers can be sold in discount bins. Many of those large retailers also have 60, 90 or even greater payment terms. So yes if bookscan shows a title sold 1000 copies, it absolutely sold a 1000 copies, however the publisher printed more and received less back on each of the those copies sold. It is likely a publisher has to sell 2,3, 5 or even as high as 10-20 copies in the book market to make the same profit selling a single copy in the direct market.

[drew]

I'm just not convinced the list as a whole is that useful in the context of comics. It is a rigged list that favors large book distributors.

I maintain the diamond list is stacked in favor of the big two as well. I think we disagree on this point but I think the majority of comic retailers continue to stock the big two (even the lousiest of titles) over other publishers (even their best stuff) - and unfortunately no amount of pre ordering seems to change that mindset (exceptions-walking dead, saga, a few others) There is just much less barrier to entry for a Klarion/Green Team than for D4ve or Manifest Destiny...

I'm not for comic socialism (maybe a little) of course the big two are the big two for a reason and they have the most titles so they should have the most shelf space

[Perseus]

Big thanks to John and Sam for the Turtles discussion. I picked up the 2nd printing of TMNT #44 this last week since I liked the cover. I'm just wanting more people to pick up the book. I think it is a high quality title.

As for the Turtles movies, the first one is my favorite, even though Secret of the Ooze is fun. The Turtles cartoon on Nickelodeon is in its third season right now. It is fantastic. It is my "go to" version of the Turtles in animated form. I do have the collection of the 80's cartoon.

As Sam mentioned, the IDW Ultimate Collection HC's are awesome. They have vol. 6 coming out this year, and that will finish the line. The Ultimate HC's only collect the Eastman and Laird material. The other classic Turtles comics are also collected in TPB form.

Of note, one trade I want to pick up is the TMNT/Ghostbusters mini series that just recently came out. The Ghostbusters series is really good, so this crossover sounded fun.

Also about Captain Carrot, I saw the Showcase Presents at my LCS this past week. It is a really large phone book.

John and Sam, your Mayo Report episodes have been fantastic. I've always liked them, but lately you guys are doing a bang up job. Thanks!!

[drew]

TJ mentioned the Valiant trade numbers, sadly i could not find a single valiant trade in the top 750 bookscan numbers, could be an anomaly, numbers selling outside the 750 or just bad timing...

[drew]

How difficult would it be to break out # of issues collected per trade into your breakdown, it seems like 5 is the average, but more and more are getting stingy with 4 (Southern ba$tards) and those that collect 6 issues charge a premium for it (marvel)

[JohnMayo]

How difficult would it be to break out # of issues collected per trade into your breakdown

I did that for a bit but it required manually figuring out which issues were in each trade and loading that into my database. Having that data did allow me to compare the sales of the component issues to the trades which was cool but it was just too time intensive for me to keep up with it.

[JohnMayo]

I'm just not convinced the list as a whole is that useful in the context of comics. It is a rigged list that favors large book distributors.

I maintain the diamond list is stacked in favor of the big two as well. I think we disagree on this point but I think the majority of comic retailers continue to stock the big two (even the lousiest of titles) over other publishers (even their best stuff) - and unfortunately no amount of pre ordering seems to change that mindset (exceptions-walking dead, saga, a few others) There is just much less barrier to entry for a Klarion/Green Team than for D4ve or Manifest Destiny...

I'm not for comic socialism (maybe a little) of course the big two are the big two for a reason and they have the most titles so they should have the most shelf space

Marvel and DC sell more in the direct market and part of why is because they were established publishers prior to the direct market being created. But that is a market condition and reflects how sales are because of that pre-existing market condition. Retailers seem reluctant to support the smaller publishers but they also make less money on the smaller publishers. There are economies of scale which favor the larger publishers. A case could be made that the front half/back half of Previews gives an edge to the premiere publishers but I would challenge anyone who made that case to support it with sales data to back it up.

To say that the Diamond list is stacked in favor of Marvel and DC implies that there is something Diamond and/or Marvel and DC are doing to make things that way. I don't think that is the case. Marvel and DC are the majority of the Diamond top comics list because they sell the most comics, not because the game is rigged in their favor. If it was, don't you think they' have a similar lock on the trades list?

[drew]

To say that the Diamond list is stacked in favor of Marvel and DC implies that there is something Diamond and/or Marvel and DC are doing to make things that way. I don't think that is the case. Marvel and DC are the majority of the Diamond top comics list because they sell the most comics, not because the game is rigged in their favor. If it was, don't you think they' have a similar lock on the trades list?

There are a large percentage perhaps even a majority of comic retailers that continue to stock 90% big two titles, much more likely to order all in on those publishers offerings and just a handful of titles from mid-majors and below, because that's what they know...its not a conspiracy but just a sad reality and this is reflected in diamonds numbers,

[JohnMayo]

There are a large percentage perhaps even a majority of comic retailers that continue to stock 90% big two titles, much more likely to order all in on those publishers offerings and just a handful of titles from mid-majors and below, because that's what they know...its not a conspiracy but just a sad reality and this is reflected in diamonds numbers,

Absolutely. I've talked about this uneven playing field for years on the episodes. Being successful makes success easier.

The best way to combat this pre-ordering. It reduces the risk for retailers making it financially viable for them to stock items from those other publishers. While pre-ordering is another sad reality of the industry, it can help level the playing field for many publishers and creators.

[fudd71]

There are a large percentage perhaps even a majority of comic retailers that continue to stock 90% big two titles, much more likely to order all in on those publishers offerings and just a handful of titles from mid-majors and below, because that's what they know...its not a conspiracy but just a sad reality and this is reflected in diamonds numbers,

I think a lot of this gets into taste verses popularity. We as humans like to assume our tastes are universal, even when there is plenty of empirical evidence to the contrary. I’m guilty of this as much as anyone. The fact that televised karaoke contests are the most popular shows on television I find hard to believe, but that is the case regardless of how I feel about it. My fellow Americans are not dumb, or don’t not get “good” programing, they have simply made their choice. Vast numbers or people enjoy something I find completely vapid with zero artistic or entertainment value. They aren’t wrong, they just have different tastes then I do. I find myself in this spot all the time, the NHL playoffs draw 100K viewers while the in my opinion much less entertaining and less interesting NBA playoffs draw millions. Hockey isn’t as popular as basketball; that is just a fact and no amount of me or anyone else extolling the virtues of hockey will change that. I’m a rock n’ roll guy who doesn’t get hip hop, again that isn’t going to change what records sell. My point is as much as would like them to be, my tastes aren’t universal, and that isn’t somehow a negative reflection on those that don’t share my tastes.

While I think you are correct that many shops only carry Big 2 comics, the question is why. The simple answer is they are more popular and easier to sell. I shop at a very good local store. My local shop is in Burbank, CA and has 150-300 regular Wednesday customers. This shop carries everything; there are very few books that they don’t get at least a single copy of in and stock on the racks. This shop is several blocks away from both the Disney and WB studio lots and within a couple of miles of NBC Universal as well, Wednesday at lunch time it is filled with members of the art departments and other creative people from those businesses. You would think this is a tailor made audience for good material regardless of the publisher, and I would argue it is. However I am there every Wednesday and while people are buying smaller companies books, it isn’t even close to the number of Big 2 books they are buying especially Marvel (and I’m a DC guy, that pains me to say). I am in this shop virtually every Wednesday at lunchtime with 50 or so other shoppers. This means there is a line and a bit of a wait, so you get to talk with and see what your fellow shoppers are buying. I would say the average shopper at this store buys 5-8 books. 2-3 DC books, 3-5 Marvel books and 1-2 smaller publishers books (with Image being 80% of those). This is as friendly a store and cliental as any indy book could possibly hope for and the Big two still make up 80% of the books I see being purchased. The Diamond list isn’t biased; it just reflects what is selling in the vast majority of comic shops even the ones that stock everything.

[drew]

The fact that televised karaoke contests are the most popular shows on television I find hard to believe, but that is the case regardless of how I feel about it. My fellow Americans are not dumb, or don’t not get “good” programing, they have simply made their choice. Vast numbers or people enjoy something I find completely vapid with zero artistic or entertainment value. They aren’t wrong, they just have different tastes then I do. I find myself in this spot all the time, the NHL playoffs draw 100K viewers while the in my opinion much less entertaining and less interesting NBA playoffs draw millions. Hockey isn’t as popular as basketball; that is just a fact and no amount of me or anyone else extolling the virtues of hockey will change that.

apples and oranges, the difference is I don't have to convince and cajole my satellite company to carry all the media options, this allows a tiny little show like walking dead on a tiny little station like AMC to attract viewers and become the most popular thing on television

if TV was like the comics industry, most of the countries cable/sat providers would only broadcast NBC, CBS, ABC and FOX and if you REALLY think you wanted to watch another show (three months in advance) they will arrange it for you but they aren't going to give it to your neighbor too unless they also think they will watch the show in 3 months...it's so ridiculous its laughable...

[JohnMayo]

if TV was like the comics industry, most of the countries cable/sat providers would only broadcast NBC, CBS, ABC and FOX and if you REALLY think you wanted to watch another show (three months in advance) they will arrange it for you but they aren't going to give it to your neighbor too unless they also think they will watch the show in 3 months...it's so ridiculous its laughable...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the cable companies have to pay to carry the various networks. If it isn't profitable then they stop carrying the network. Here in Austin, the local affiliate for one of the networks (I think it was CBS but I'm not sure) was taken off one of the cable providers while the two negotiated a deal. I don't know how it is with most cable providers but I don't think my cable company carries every single network. For example, if I wanted to watch something on the new ConTv network I don't think Time Warner Cable here in Austin, Texas gives me that option. So, maybe it isn't all that different.

One key difference is comics are a physical format while television isn't. A local comic shop has to purchase the comic which they do with the hope they can sell it for a profit. I don't think that a cable provide is purchasing content from the networks with the same sort of risk. If I don't watch every one of the hundreds of channels my cable company provides, they aren't out anything. If people don't buy a majority of every one of the hundreds of comic book issues a typical comic book shop gets each week, they could go out of business.

The point that smaller publishers have a stupidly hard time getting a foothold in the market is valid. But that doesn't mean the fault is the direct market. If anything, the problem is the direct market has forces something of a meritocracy onto comics causing things which don't find a large enough audience to die out.

[fudd71]

apples and oranges, the difference is I don't have to convince and cajole my satellite company to carry all the media options, this allows a tiny little show like walking dead on a tiny little station like AMC to attract viewers and become the most popular thing on television

if TV was like the comics industry, most of the countries cable/sat providers would only broadcast NBC, CBS, ABC and FOX and if you REALLY think you wanted to watch another show (three months in advance) they will arrange it for you but they aren't going to give it to your neighbor too unless they also think they will watch the show in 3 months...it's so ridiculous its laughable...

Apples to Apples if you bothered to read instead of deleting the part that didn't support your argument

While I think you are correct that many shops only carry Big 2 comics, the question is why. The simple answer is they are more popular and easier to sell. I shop at a very good local store. My local shop is in Burbank, CA and has 150-300 regular Wednesday customers. This shop carries everything; there are very few books that they don’t get at least a single copy of in and stock on the racks. This shop is several blocks away from both the Disney and WB studio lots and within a couple of miles of NBC Universal as well, Wednesday at lunch time it is filled with members of the art departments and other creative people from those businesses. You would think this is a tailor made audience for good material regardless of the publisher, and I would argue it is. However I am there every Wednesday and while people are buying smaller companies books, it isn’t even close to the number of Big 2 books they are buying especially Marvel (and I’m a DC guy, that pains me to say). I am in this shop virtually every Wednesday at lunchtime with 50 or so other shoppers. This means there is a line and a bit of a wait, so you get to talk with and see what your fellow shoppers are buying. I would say the average shopper at this store buys 5-8 books. 2-3 DC books, 3-5 Marvel books and 1-2 smaller publishers books (with Image being 80% of those). This is as friendly a store and cliental as any indy book could possibly hope for and the Big two still make up 80% of the books I see being purchased. The Diamond list isn’t biased; it just reflects what is selling in the vast majority of comic shops even the ones that stock everything.

[drew]

not saying its biased, just saying its slanted in big twos favor because of a very flawed business practice (preordering)

lets keep is civil, I hate it when co-hosts fight

[fudd71]

not saying its biased, just saying its slanted in big twos favor because of a very flawed business practice (preordering)

lets keep is civil, I hate it when co-hosts fight

I could not agree more that preordering is a crazy business practice that hurts the industry. I hate it enough that I simply refuse to participate. I have tried preordering several times for shot periods and found I just don't care for, so I don't do it.

Still love you Drew and your the best darn co-host out there!

I will say this, if we see more things like the loot create deals, the Diamond numbers could become similar to the BookScan numbers. Right now those deals are few and far between, and John does a great job of pointing out that they are not indicative of a books normal sales pattern. If in the future there are enough of those types of deals made that 50% or more of the year end Top 100 is because of those deals, the Diamond list will be just as flawed as the BookScan list.